Long "throw" on AB before paint comes

[waterboyjlw]

First, I have been ghosting around the forum for a while and found alot of info that was soooooo helpful - THANX!!! so I subscribed.

Now, Here's my question - I'm using a Talon AB w/AAC typically set to 30 psi but have been as high as 40 and as low as 20. While going through "The Lessons", I have noticed that I have to move the trigger back a long way (about halfway) before I get any paint flow out of the tip. I've looked around and haven't foundany info on this or if it is normal for this AB. I have another new talon in the box still and have'nt tried it yet to compare, figured I'd get some input from some people with more than the 5 hours experiance I have.
I can spray a pretty thin line with the AB and my dots are OK (still alittle wet sometimes). The AB is clean,clean,clean
Any insight or suggestions would be welcome. Thanx

[admin]

put the auto air away and use comart or golden airbrush colors until you are comfortable with the airbrush meaning dots, lines, dagger strokes, shading --the basic's once it is second nature for you to accomplish those than use whatever paint you want

[lsabourin]

Ditto on that. Depending on the AA color you use, the viscosity will change. AA also tends to clog up the AB. You have to crank it out on piece of scrap from time to time. Very tough paint to work with initially

[waterboyjlw]

Thanx,
I read that in the lesson plan ( to use the "easier" ink/paints), and i know its costing me a bit more to learn with AAC (time and money), but I really want to paint my bike. My warped thought process says learn with what your going to use - even if it's harder. I already KNOW about tip dry and almost have a reflex to pinch the tip every couple of minutes and spray off paper when starting again. Its not your fault, some people (me) just won't listen to everything.

[lsabourin]

Waterboy, you might as well paint on metal too then! So you can really see all the nasty tricks that AA can do!

[fontgeek]

Besides what Don, the admin. told you, which is wise and true, you need to understand what an airbrush is and how it works to do the troubleshooting, and that comes with doing some reading (and paying attention), and practice.

An airbrush is basically two valves, one valve controls the air, the other controls the paint. Pretty simple so far...
The trigger button pushes down on a piston that opens the airvalve, the interior of the airvalve is made up of a tapered plug, with a shaft that runs up through the middle of it. This plug has a spring mounted to it's underside, that spring pushes the plug upwards, keeping the valve closed until you overpower the spring by pushing the trigger down. When you push the trigger down, it inturn pushes down on the piston, which inturn pushes down against that plug with the shaft running through it. The other half of that valve is a tapered female opening, as the trigger is pushed further and further down, it allows more and more air to pass through the opening created by the absence of the plug half of the valve. The air passes up into an area that has an opening off to one side, that passage leads to the front end of the airbrush typically along the bottom surface of the brush. The air is then injected into the nozzle cap, and normally escapes out through the opening in the nozzle cap surrounding the protruding nozzle itself. That air passing by the tip of the nozzle creates a vacuum that pulls the paint out, and atomizes it into the spray you see.

The second valve is the one controlling the paint. On a single action brush, this valve is controlled by a preset handle, or something similar.
The needle is typically a long tapered shaft, which inturn fits neatly and smoothly into the matching female nozzle. Paint is carried along the front end of the needle by gravity or by the siphon/vacuum action. For your brush, the Paasche Talon, it is gravity. Gravity pushes the paint down, trying to seek it's level or lowest point. When you pull the trigger back on a double action brush such as yours, you are pulling that needle back out of the nozzle where it would normally be seated. When that needle is pulled back, it lets the paint flow out to the tip of the needle, where it is caught and atomized by the air in the nozzle cap, and sprayed out through the tiny opening in the nozzle.

The perfomance of your brush, regardless of make or model, depends upon your brush being clean and well maintained, and upon the proper balance of air pressure and paint viscosity (thickness).
If any one of these parts of the equation are out of whack, your brush won't perform properly.

If your paint is too thick/viscous, then it won't flow down the needle or atomize properly. If your paint is really sticky, and or your needle is dirty, then the paint will want to hang up at every bit of the needle and airbrush it can. Only spraying when you have the brush wide open because the force of the vacuum on the paint becomes greater than the adhesive strength of the wet paint.

What does this mean to you for your problem?
A> Your paint is too thick to flow smoothly.
B> Your air pressure is to low to create the necessary vacuum needed to spray the paint properly.
C> The front end of your needle, and possibly the brush as a whole, are dirty.
D> All of the above.

The reason Don, myself, and most of the other old timers reccomend using something like Golden Airbrush Colors to start is that for people new to painting, there are already more than enough frustrations or challenges to face in just learning and understanding the airbrush, so that adding another frustration like a thick, sticky, or troublesome paint into the mix is just rubbing salt in the wound. Many people give up airbrushing before they ever really get started because of frustrations like these, and the fear caused by ignorance or lack of knowledge as to cleaning or maintenance.

The basics for the airbrushing skills are the same, whether you are using AA or Golden, and the cost on the Golden is less, so why spend more for the same pieces of scrap paper you are going to be throwing away?
I would strongly suggest the change in paint, and also to learn using ONLY a solid black paint. While black may not seem exciting, it is by far the best teacher for learning your skills. It pulls no punches, it lets you see if your lines are actually fine, if your dots are clean and round, if your dagger strokes are keeping their density, and so on. Other colors are neat, but they are not good indicators of how and where you are in your skills. Trying to decide if you have learned a light touch is tough when you are working with a color that is light to start with. When you use black, a light shade looks gray, if you go heavy... Black doesn't lie or cheat you.

Use some sense, listen to the old farts, this (the internet) didn't exist when I first learned to airbrush, I wish it did, and that there were people around who would have shared their knowledge and experience with me, it would have saved me years in learing, and a whole lot of wasted money and frustration.

Those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it.

[waterboyjlw]

Ok, I guess what I should have mentioned was my only choices of paint are AAC or some Euros that I have. So I can either use those or none at all. I am only using paint from the same 32 oz bottle of base coat sealer dark to try to minimize the effects of the difficulty of "Learning with AAC". If I get the opportunity to pick up some golden, I will, but, right now I what I have is what I have to work with.

To Fontgeek your rationale is sound and this is kind of what I was thinking (not enough vaccum being created at the tip to "pull" paint outfor the conditions, venturi effect not enough to overcome cohesive bond of paint). Just wasn't sure if the long throw was atypical and have no experiance to judge against. As to why its happening, gotta be the paint is to thick. Gun is clean. Air supply is more than adequate, clean, and dried.

I can't say I'm anywhere close to frustration 6 hours into useing the AB, I really expected to SUK!!! alot worse in the begining since I have NO art background (except crayons many years ago). I have nothing but time ( at least until the temp drops below 95F outside, 2 more months).

[fontgeek]

You can get almost any paint by mail, so other paints might be worth considering.

As to using the AA, thin it and mix it thoroughly, and strain it BEFORE it goes into the airbrush. AA has had a reputation for chunks and varying viscosity levels, so there is no magic formula (unfortunately) for reducing it.
Ideally, you want the paint to have about the same viscosity as skim milk, with no chunks or blobs in it. Even the real tiny grit will keep your brush from performing right.

You can only thin paint down so much before it starts to effect the quality of the paint's adhesion, so if you can't reduce it any more, then you need to raise the airpressure. This will help it draw the paint out.
Also check to make sure your needle is clean. Dried paint or debris just breeds more of the same. If you have some Aerolube or something of that nature, put a drop on the tip of your thumb, then rub the tip of your thumb to the tip of your index finger, now (with the needle removed from the brush and clean), pull the needle through the pinched tips of your fingers. Give the needle a little bit of a twist as you do this. Your real area of concern is the first two or three inches (the pointy end) of the needle, this is where it passes through the needle packing, the trough at the bottom of your paint reservoir, and through the nozzle, this lubricant will not effect the paint, other than to keep it from sticking onto the needle so badly, it may also help you avoid tip dry.

[waterboyjlw]

Ok got a chance to lube needle today, and slowy started adding more reducer to paint to thinn it up. YEP!! I was trying to AB with paint that was way too thick. Tip dry is not bad at all now - freakin amazing!! More lines and dots from lesson #1, then ......dropped my AB, bent the F'n needle tip 90 degrees. Gotta love it though - left me wanting more. I 'll pickup a couple a spares later today and then back to my 6th page of lines. THANKS to all who replied!!!!!

Wars are fought by soldiers with the weapons they are given, not the ones they wish they had.

Just because I didn't take your advice does not mean that I don't value it.

[lsabourin]

Waterboy, here's an almost magic formula for AA. Mix it 5:2, paint:reducer at 30 psi or less. Works all the way down to a Micron AB. DON'T REDUCE TRANSPARENT WHITE!!!

[waterboyjlw]

Right on! I'll give it a try, I'm at 2:1 right now and the paint started flowing pretty good (was kinda afraid to keep reducing for fear of it becoming too wet). And 30psi seems to be where i'm having the most success anyway. It feels like I have a bit more control of the AB than the higher pressures. I'm sure I'll have to figure out when to adjust pressures later, right now just trying to fine tune the most basic skills and continue from there. Although, I did learn that I am a naturally gifted artist yesterday.... I drew a stick figure on my first try!!!

BTW, I actually considered "learning" on metal sign blanks, the only thing that stopped me was the thought of having to sand them down every couple of days and re-prime. I figured it was too much time and effort being used in the wrong direction.

[yardartnut]

Originally Posted by waterboyjlw

Although, I did learn that I am a naturally gifted artist yesterday.... I drew a stick figure on my first try!!!

ahahahah

Your excitment is a breath of fresh air...I love to see folks posting the thrill of learning to airbrush.....6 pages -oh my! let us know when ya get to the 6 millionth one
Be sure to save your first works to compare to... even at the short span of a month..it will be amazing! [with practice]

HAve fun...

[waterboyjlw]

Originally Posted by yardartnut

ahahahah

6 pages -oh my! let us know when ya get to the 6 millionth one
Be sure to save your first works to compare to... even at the short span of a month..it will be amazing! [with practice]

HAve fun...

Just lines and dots so far. I hope to never get 6 million ( at least with only black boring lines and dots). It's difficult to keep my self going at a slow(read: proper) pace, I just wannna through some masking on, cut it out, and spray, it can't be that hard......Right???? I'm learnin. Just waitin for the paint shop to open so I can go pick up a couple needles.

Oh yeah, took pictures of "baby steps" pages, figure I'll put them up, I gotta a thick skin, maybe encourage others without any talent. They see my first pages and figure "NO WAY I'll be that bad."

[fontgeek]

I know the lines, dots, and daggers can seem a bit boring, but those, and a bit of shading, are the basis for all airbrushing. So keep with it!
Work til you can do your lines, dots, daggers, in any direction, without having to stop to think about what you are doing.
Then go on to shading, and the use of stencils, masks and templates.

I don't know if you do this or not, but in case you do, a word of warning...
While the temptation may be there to airbrush with the needle cap off because "everybody" does it, don't give in. The reality is that a whole lot of painters don't spray with the needle cap removed. Initially, the older painters kept the cap off so that they could pick the tip dry off of the brush without having to remove the cap, but this soon let to people bending and damaging the needles and nozzles of their brushes. While you might be able to get a slightly finer line with the cap removed, the actual need for that kind of line is very rare. I would keep an old toothbrush or denture brush and a cup of water near your work space. The brush and water make it easy to keep the tip of the needle clean without having to remove the needle cap, and they are typically a whole lot easier on the airbrush than trying to do it with your fingertips.
So many habits are taken on by new airbrush artists from what they see in videos, tv, friends, etc. do, and they do the same things without asking why. And those things get taken to the extreme, more often than not to the detriment of the airbrusher and their airbrush. I knew one guy who removed and disposed of the handles to every airbrush as soon as he bought them. He told me he did that because "that's what the pro's do". He destroyed several airbrushes, and lowered their value when he tried to sell them be cause he couldn't supply the complete airbrush, or the instructions, or the original box, etc. Learning from other's experience is great, but part of the learning has to be understanding "WHY" things are done.

I wish you the best of luck with your new addiction, be careful, wear the proper protection, even with water based paints. Protect yourself and your environment, and have fun!

[waterboyjlw]

Originally Posted by fontgeek

I don't know if you do this or not, but in case you do, a word of warning...
While the temptation may be there to airbrush with the needle cap off because "everybody" does it, don't give in.
I wish you the best of luck with your new addiction, be careful, wear the proper protection, even with water based paints. Protect yourself and your environment, and have fun!

ALMOST too late, I was taking the cap off regularly, but on the way to the paint shop to pick up two MORE needles (have bent 3 already - 2x dropped AB, 1 too close,too fast), I decided its time to keep the cap on. Luckily the Talon parts are inexpensive. I'll get a brush and water.
I also picked up AAC restorer today, I really thought i was doing a good job cleaning, after soaking my AB for 5 minutes (nozzle, tip, cap and paint end of body only) got a suprising amount of paint "crumbs" that floated out. That stuff works good.
I'm AB inside right now, too hot in detached garage for at least another month here. I got a "downdraft box" that i'm using (it gets vented outside after filtering) and a cheapie paper mask (gotta real resperator too, but just don't need it with the downdraft box). Seems to work real well, designed for collecting sanding dust. Too powerfull though, It actually makes it hard to get paint on paper when I'm ABing near the bottom off a page. But I already had it, so it'll work.
I had to give up the lines and dots for a day, decided to see if i could paint something on paper that would be recognizable. I did a checkered flag, turned out Ok, i can see a couple of scale errors on it now that its done, but I just had to goof for a day. MORE LINES AND DOTS ....tommorow.
Thanks for the advise and encouragement!!

[waterboyjlw]

Originally Posted by lsabourin

DON'T REDUCE TRANSPARENT WHITE!!!

Trans white looks awful thick. are you using trans base to thin it???

[cdv]

Wow, I know this thread wasn't started by me but I think waterboyjlw described my problems to a tee! Great advice and I can't wait to get home to try some different paint.... Heck i think I'll order online so it might be there when I get home.... I've been thinking all along that Createx has been the problem....
Thanks all
Cliff

[Luc-Boivin]

then ......dropped my AB, bent the F'n needle tip 90 degrees. Gotta love it though - left me wanting more. I 'll pickup a couple a spares later today and then back to my 6th page of lines.

If you bent your needle 90 degrees, chances are you damaged your nozzle as well. If this is the case, this will seriously impact the way your airbrush performs. Sometimes the damage cannot be seen by eye alone, you need something like a 30X microscope. Also, a damaged nozzle cannot be fixed. A bent needle can be fixed...even one bent at 90 degrees. Here again you need something like the 30X to see up close.

With respect to AA paints, for myself it took me several months to master it and if you are in your learning curve, wrk with the thinnest paint you can lay your hands on. Only when you are fully in control of the airbrush should you start experiencing with thicker paints....my 2 cents.

Luc

[waterboyjlw]

Originally Posted by Luc-Boivin

If you bent your needle 90 degrees, chances are you damaged your nozzle as well. If this is the case, this will seriously impact the way your airbrush performs. Sometimes the damage cannot be seen by eye alone, you need something like a 30X microscope. Also, a damaged nozzle cannot be fixed. A bent needle can be fixed...even one bent at 90 degrees. Here again you need something like the 30X to see up close.

With respect to AA paints, for myself it took me several months to master it and if you are in your learning curve, wrk with the thinnest paint you can lay your hands on. Only when you are fully in control of the airbrush should you start experiencing with thicker paints....my 2 cents.

Luc

I had read that it might be possible to fix the bent needles (I actually was able to straighten them quite a bit) so I did save them in a needle tube marked "BAD". I might try and mill a wedge or something down the road to try and finish getting the needles straight. But for now where I am at in the learning process, I can't "question" the performance of new needles. Thankfully for the Talon AB I'm using, a needle and nozzle is only $11.50 right here in town. I guess if I was having to replace Iwata parts it would actually "hurt" a little though. I knew I hurt the nozzle the first time I dropped it, so I have just been replacing it with the needle each time. I think the real fix for me is to clean up work area a quit dropping the AB!!! And I'm just using Base coat sealer dark (thinned, of course) for now because I have been told/read that AAC can be real difficult and consistancy varies with colors at times, I don't need that now. I have new tins for my bike that I intend to paint......when i'm good enough to only have to do it twice. I have a 08 Road Glide, so there are alot of pieces. Thanks

[fontgeek]

The bent or kinked needles also damage or destroy the needle packing/seals. When you pull a needle out that has a bend, kink, or layer of crusty paint, it acts like a rasp, and tears away at the interior of the packing. If your bend is really severe, the tip of the needle can also be scraping away the chrome finish on the tube the paint flows through from the reservoir to the tip of the needle, not to mention the chrome all the way back through the airbrush, through the channel or trough at the bottom of the reservoir, the short passage between the reservoir and the needle packing, etc.

The damage can go a whole lot further than you think, and be a whole lot more expensive than you are actually willing to spend.