2 brushes - straight out of box. won't draw paint

[P-fly]

Good evening, all! Boy, am I glad to have found you!

I am a long-time make up artist (Theatrical and Video applications), but a complete novice to airbrush. I recently decided to upgrade to airbrush in order to keep up with the special needs of shooting in high definition for video production.

Anyway -- I have two Paache brushes -- one expensive, one cheap. I picked up a cheap ($22) single action Paache brush a few weeks ago, along with some canned air. First few times out, the brush worked great and I got the steady flow and thin but complete coverage I needed for makeup application. I was very pleased - even with the inexpensive brush.

Now I have cleaned this brush thouroughly each time I've used it. -- and the viscosity of the (water based) makeup is very thin.


A few days after getting the inexpensive brush, I picked up a baby / portable piston type air compressor with 55 PSI and 15 L/min air delivery.

Air flows through the single action brush without any problem, but now I can't get any paint to draw from the bottle up into the brush. Plain water won't draw either.

Tried going back to the canned air - and ran into th esame problem. No liquid draws up into the brush.

Tonight my expensive brush arrived. A VLSTPRO Internal Mix double Action: She's a real beauty!

I hooked up the VLSTPRO to the air compressor to test, and again - air flows quite nicely through the brush. Then I tried attaching a bottle with just water to test - and no draw or flow. I then I attached the cup (bottom feed) - and still no water will draw into the brush.

I made sure to tightn up all the connections, and then opened up the line adjustment assembly, thinking perhaps it was too tight to allow any liquid through -- but no luck.

I don't have the proper fitting to use the VLSTPRO hose with the canned air so I wasn't able to test it that way.

I have looked through all the literature / instructions and I can't find anything regarding failure to draw liquid into the brush described anywhere.


Does anyone have any idea of what I may be doing wrong?


Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer!

P-Fly

[redneck]

when you had the bottle on the brush, did you try back- flushing, the tube could be stop -up or touching the bottom of the bottle, try cutting a slight angle on the end of the tube

[lsabourin]

Fly, have you tried drawing up water with the same bottle. I think it's glogged somewhere. Soak it or use a pipe cleaner to get the possible crap out of there

[KwitcherBitchin]

P-Fly, I thinking on the same lines as L here..Bottle( maybe the air/vent hole on the cap itself), does the Bottle Collapse when you try to shoot paint?
To add to what Redneck said also, if your unfamiliar with the term "backflushing". Here's how to do it...With the Air pressure on and attempting to spray paint, place your finger in front and on the tip/nozzle (Be careful for the Needle) to block air/paint flow from coming out the tip. This will cause the pressure/ paint to come back, flushing the brush. Watch out for paint spray on the gravity feed brushes though.
FYI though, I'm not familiar with your type brushes or paints though. If Fontgeek shows up, I'm sure he could probably get you on the right track.

Welcome to the forum. Make sure to post some pics once you get the bugs worked out, your career field sounds pretty interesting..........................Kwit

[brushbyair]

P-Fly, just a quick thought after reading through your post, the more expensive AB is a double action brush, in order to get it to draw water or paint from the bottle you have to push the trigger down for air, then pull back for paint. Not sure if this could be your problem but it just struck me as a possibility, if not sorry for showing my ignorance.

[P-fly]

Thanks for the warm welcome, the quick-replies and especially for the detailed suggestions, everyone.

I truly look forward to getting to know the community and learning some helpful tips and tricks here!

I did try back-flushing (finger over the needle) and got just a few bubbles back into the bottle and side-feed cup when I did this.

I've got glass bottles - no plastic, so no collapsing.

With the air off - I was able to draw plain water up through a bottle (brand new - never had paint in it) by using my mouth first directly on the tube at the top of the bottle, and then with the bottle attached, by drawing it up through the nozzle of the brush -- no blockages in the tube or the mechanism .

I will try trimming the tube in the bottle at an angle and see if that has any impact.

Could I simply be holding the brush at the wrong angle?

Later last night, I did have some minor success getting water through the brush by holding the brush (with side feed cup attached) at an extreme angle (nearly upside down!) - but I can't imagine that would be very practical, or allow me much control in the long run -- I should be able to hold the brush perpindicular and still get liquid to draw, no?

Shouldn't there be some vaccum action associated with the air pressure on the compressor that is supposed to draw liquid up and through?

If this is the case, I would think adjusting the PSI setting might solve the problem - however my baby compressor doesn't have adjustible settings -- sorry for being ignorant on this point - but would I be able to control PSI delivery through an adjustment on the brush, itself?

I've only tested the new brush with water - hasnt had any make up in it yet. So I don't think that's the problem. Also, the make up formula I am using with the inexpensive brush is quite thin - about the consistency of skim milk.


Looking forward to hearing more thoughts from everyone!

P-Fly

[P-fly]

Originally Posted by brushbyair

P-Fly, just a quick thought after reading through your post, the more expensive AB is a double action brush, in order to get it to draw water or paint from the bottle you have to push the trigger down for air, then pull back for paint. Not sure if this could be your problem but it just struck me as a possibility, if not sorry for showing my ignorance.

Not ignorance at all, friend. I appreciate your thoughtfullness and throughouness in helping me to figure out what I might be doing wrong -- I am convinced this has got to be operator error!

I wish it were what you suggested, since that would be a simple solution - but I don't believe that is the problem - I am first pressing down on the trigger to get airflow going, then pulling back to draw the liquid into the nozzle.

Also I'm having the same problem with my single-action brush - no draw on either one.

Thank you for your reply though. I appreciate all suggestions!

[ghooptie]

Just a thought, have you checked to see if the nut is tight on the needle for the double action brush, if it is not tight then it will not be pulling the needle back to allow paint to be drawn up and through the brush.....

Bill

[KwitcherBitchin]

I didn't see nothing in your replies about a vent hole on the cap of the paint bottle? Does it have one? And is it clean enough to see thru? Curious, I'm thinking it's something simple bud.............................................Kw it

[fontgeek]

You said that the first brush worked fine for a bit, so the "straight out of the box" is a bit misleading. And because you used the same bottle on the second brush, it basically means that you weren't working that brush "straight out of the box" either.

I would definitely check to make sure that the vent hole in the lid of the bottle/jar is open. If that hole is blocked, then it prevents air from entering the bottle to displace the paint as it is drawn out.
You also need to make sure that the bottom of the feeder tube (inside the bottle) is submerged in paint. While having a bevel on that tube is nice, keep in mind that the taller the bevel, the more paint or makeup you have to keep in that same bottle to be able to paint or apply makeup.

The cans of "air" are a really expensive excersize in frustration and futility.

Your new and old brush probably both came with a small metal cup that can work on the brush(es), try that cup with some water in it. If it works, then it tells you that the problem is the bottle. If it doesn't then it (the problem) is isolated to the airbrush(es).

Something else to check on your brushes is to make sure that you do not have air leaking. Use a soapy water solution and coat the front end of the brush, you might do the same around the airvalve and the hose connection. When you try to spray, are you seeing bubbles forming around those areas?
If so, then you need to snug those fittings down, and or seal them off. Using bees wax is an easy way to do this. Bees wax is a neutral compound that won't get brittle, and won't interfere with your work. Rubbing some into or onto the threads of the nozzle cap before you screw it onto the body of the airbrush, and maybe on the threads of the airvalve, if you are having problems there, will let you safely seal up those threads without the damage to the airbrush. Keep in mind that the airbrushes are primarily made of brass, and that the brass stretches and distorts with overtightening.

A suggestion for you though. Get a quick-connect setup for your hose(s) and your airbrushes. This lets you put a male quick-connect end on your brushes, and leave them there, and the female recepticle stays on your hoses. This keeps you from having to fight to get good connections, it also helps you avoid tangled hoses, or damaged fittings do to repeated tightening with wrenches/spanners, or pliers.
You might consider getting one of Grex's G-MACs, these give you the quick-connect, but they also give you a Micro Air Control valve to let you fine tune the airpressure right at the airbrush, and while you are working. It would require getting a different kind of hose though, they (Grex) use the same size hose threading as the Olympos, Iwata, Precision, and other brands, but unlike the Paasche lineup.

Try the things suggested, and let us know how it all comes out, what is or isn't working, etc.

[P-fly]

Hi All - thanks to all of you again for your dilligence in helping me try to work this out.


To clear a few things up:

I used the inexpensive / single action brush about five times before it stopped drawing.

The expensive dual action brush arrived just yesterday, I have never used it with paint (only tested with water). Also - someone assumed I was using a "dirty" bottle to do my testing on the second brush. That is not the case at all. I used the bottle that came with the second brush to test the second brush. Virgin bottle. Virgin brush. So no cross contamination is possible.

Additionally, I have cleaned the first brush, it's bottle, cap /cap vent and tube throuroughly after each use, using a mild detergent and a small bristle-wand (pipecleaner type brush).

Both bottle caps have vent holes and the vent holes are clear.

The side-feed paint cup that came with the VLSTPRO also does not draw up liquid when attached.

I am able to draw liquid up through the bottles and into both brushes, using my mouth.

I am filling the bottle up about half-way, so the tube is completely submerged in liquid.


I have tightened all connections at the compressor, and where the air hoses connect to the brushes, but I am grateful for the suggestion of testing for leaks, and will try the soapy water suggestion as instructed by Fontgeek. If that turns out to be the culprit - I'll use the beeswax remedy too!


***

A word about air source: I bought a portable compressor specifically so I wouldn't need to continue to use canned air on the set.

I only used the canned air for a couple of days, until the compressor came in. I wasn't thrilled with it, but it wasn't the worst thing in the world, either.
It just takes some practice to be able to finess the pressure and maintain control.

As my canvass happens to be skin (more specifically, the human face) - I definately need low (but steady) air pressure that allows me complete control so as not to scare, irritate or injure my subjects.

Also, For what I do: whichever airsource I use has got to be small and portable, so I can get it around easily from location to location.

The airflow from the small compressor I bought is quite good (PSI / 55) - and is steady. I just wonder if there isn't enough of it to get that liquid to move up into the brush?

[redneck]

P-Fly, If you are doing skin and esp. faces may I recommended a gravity-feed airbrush which will work with a very low PSI [10 to 20 psi] so you do not hurt your customers or surprise them when the air hit their eyes or nostils

[fontgeek]

You can get smaller CO2 tanks. I'm not talking about the tiny ones for bb guns or paint ball, but ones that are a bit smaller than a scuba tank.
Because you should be using only a few psi to do makeup, one of those bottles will last you a weekend's worth of painting, and it would let you go setup anywhere, no noise, no electrical issues, no oil to deal with. You would still want and need a regulator and filter setup. While CO2 should not have any water in it, it will have rust and other junk in there, and if you have any water get into your system from the tank or hoses, you are just begging for troubles from your customers and or your airbrush.

I will be curious to hear the results of the soapy water tests.
If everything else is working and in good shape, then your list of possibilities is pretty darn limited.
Worse comes to worse, take your brushes to your local art supply store, and try them out on their setup. If nothing else, it helps you eleminate the possibilities that it is your air supply that is the problem.

[P-fly]

Issue resolved:

I was away for the weekend and brought my compressor and airbrush to a friend who was able to test both. It was the compressor. While there is nothing wrong with it, per se, as I suspected, it simply doesn't have enough power to provide suction for the siphon feed.

Thanks to everyone for your input and suggestions. I will keep a print out of this thread for future reference as I am sure I'll be in need of trouble shooting as I learn the craft.

P-Fly