Copy Right Thread

The Copy Right thread was deleted by mistake. Please repost any information you had posted.

[xzotic ink]

SANDI OR J.W OR ANYONE,, please let me know what the hell is going on, i woke this morning to find out most of my stuff was taken off ebay,,,why? what the hell,. now!! some company claims copy right laws again,,here are the photos below,,,first of all the tshirt doesnt say b marley, second there is no poster or t ever made like this,,the hat, they dont even sell hats,,and the hat design was all mine,,,so are sneakers,,,i couldnt do tiny detail so i took a photo of b marley and just did the contour lines(i think thats what you call it) and added the normal colors around it,,,I never saw a print even like it,,they have print shirts with just an outline of b marley but not like this, its a frontal picture,,,fourth i say when "as listed" these are MY DESIGNS, AIRBRUSHED BY ME,,,how the hell are they claiming this,,the store doesnt even have sneakers or hats, and plenty people sell stuff like an old t of b marly,,im soooo made, ,im thinking of writing ebay and the store,,its not right , i did not copy there images,,can they just snatch it because they own his face, is that how it works? Should i complain or just shut up about it,,,look at the designs yourself,,,,you might of saw numerous print shirts like with b marley face on it,,but its completely different,,,,Maybe i just dont see it,,can someone explain, even if they dont have these designs, they own his face? i see the name, but even his face?

[MesaBoogie]

That's BS, just state its a Bill Marley design...... Like the Rotex watches on the streets of NYC

[landsbro]

sorry for what happend,,but doesn't ebay have any link where you can contact them to answer your questions,,,,
just thought,,,
/kimmo

[xzotic ink]

MESA, thats exactly what my brother told me, they have no right to do that,,THERE SOMETHING CALLED freedom of ART, FREEDOM TO EXPRESSION,,im so upset,,right when i was getting an even flow going with my sales on ebay for ab stuff,,,,but i just found a game plan,,yes landsbro, there is a website to contact , but when i contact this so called company this one is a dead end,,there so called store is not even up and running yet,,it says coming soon! SO HERES THE PLAN,,after flipping and slamming things!! my brother felt bad for me,,he put it in some legal terms that might work,,,as you said mesa,,CHANGE THE TITLE,,even thought it does not say b marley on the design it self,,,CALL IT REGGAE GEAR OR WEAR,,lets see what happens,,now they can shut me down after this if they think im messin w b marley company but if they do,,THIS IS FREEDOM OF ART, AND I CAN SHOW THEM MY REFERENCE DID NOT EVEN LOOK LIKE A PHOTO OR IMAGE OF B MARLEY,,THANK GOD IM NOT THAT GOOD,,IT ACTUALly paid off for once not to be that good,,lol,,okay at least im coolin down and saying jokes..YOU THINK THIS COULD WORK?? IM going to relist as soon as i get home...

[Bettyboop]

Hi xzotic,

Sorry to hear about what happened, a photo has copyright, so if you copied even a piece of this they can get you for copyright, as far as the other design work goes, if you can prove that you have not seen any work that has the same design as yours, then you should be ok. It does not matter what the previous piece of art work has been on, whether it be t's, trainers, or an actual painting, if any part has been copied in your work then you are infringing.

However, as you state, you have not copied any work, so I wonder if there is another reason... If you have the company name, I can do a quick search to see if they have any trademark rights. (if you would rather PM than post this info, then please feel free to do so.)

[maddjohnny]

Hi Xzotic.
Thats terrible they did that.
Seems to me if they are making claim to a specific image or design being thiers, they should have no problem offering "proof". I have heard statements by people in the past stating the minute you finish the artwork, it is instantly copyrighted. Don't bet on that! I do agree that should be the case, but there are a lot of "undesireables" out there with skillful ways to test that theory. You're best bet is to actually copyright your work. That can get expensive though with a lot of designs.

Heres an alternative.
An old art instructor of mine gave me a good suggestion about this topic. He said, if you can't afford to copyright all your images the standard way, there is a cheaper alternative that should hold up in court.
He said to take a good clear photo of every image or design. Then, put each one in an envelope and mail it to "yourself". Somewhere on the back of the envelope add a code of some sort so you know the contents of each envelope. Which design is in what envelope in other words.
The postmark on the envelope is proof of the date or timestamp if you will. Now, if the design truly is yours, no one else should be able to produce a copy of that image and state it was theirs first.
Sounds like a good idea.
I'm sure there may be loopholes to this theory, but it is something else you can try, and it only costs the price of a stamp.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this method?

[xzotic ink]

i heard of that thing madjohny mailing yourself a letter,,,thanks betty boop, i will pm,, i was just happy now im back to fuming,,,heres the deal,,i thought o yaa ill change the name,,but now im hearing that IF IT RESEMBLES THE IMAGE OF "BOB MARLEY" than its a problem,,but here we go again,,this could be just a nice jamaican man who posed for me,,,check out the design,,ILL STILL HAVE THE REFERENCE PHOTO I USED,,by no WAY MEANS IS IT CLOSE,,you can say they have the same hat on and same beard and mustache but NOTHING ELSE,,,so im like i can be hit AGAIN WITH a dam law suit, what is this FREEDOM OF ART??? Does anyone know? My brother said "its freedom of art" ???? I dont know anymore,, take a look at my designs,,,has anyone seen them anywhere? Maybe its one of those things Im just not catching,,,

[fresnojohns]

X,
That is pretty wild. You know how many times I lettered harley davidson
on a set of tanks????? Even though its on a harley. What about everyone else
that does artwork. As I said before, no ones stuff is a million percent origonal.
Why?????? Becouse we have all been taught by a instructer or learned out of a book. Or if I bring something to you and you say ( do you have some reference I can go by). Even in many airbrush books by people who are so well known they use reference photos. I guess I couldn't sell my scroll engraving on E-bay cause the scroll design I did is not origonal. So 1000
other hand engravers copy stuff too. Sounds to me you stepped on someones toes. Like I said before, I was in Tucson, Az. I usually carry my camera with me if I see something cool. I saw cool decal on the back window
of a dodge truck. I snap a photo of it. No license plate or nothing. Owner sees me. Wants to take camera out of my hands call the police. There was no mark on this decal, and I used a zoom and didn't touch his stupid truck.
Well they better stop making childrens coloring books too, because kids are changing there art too. Its to the point its stupid. Everyone is out to stop
you from doing something cool. Its happened to me too. Go to a swap meet
and you see every knock off you can think of.
Fresnojohns

[Bettyboop]

Sorry xzotic, I can't seem to get PM's. Not sure why, will look into the reason.

Thought this website might help, it gives all the info about copyright:

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#wci

fresnojohns: Harley Davidson is a trademark rather than a copyright, if you are using this in the course of trade on the same items or items similar to those for which it has been registered then you are infringing trademark, and they are likely to be a lot tougher with this than with copyright.

Infringing Copyright, means copying literary works; musical works, including any accompanying words; dramatic works, including any accompanying music; pantomimes and choreographic works; pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works; motion pictures and other audiovisual works; sound recordings, and architectural works. Even if you copy only a small part of any of these, it is infringement, you do not need to copy the whole thing. If you were to copy part of a painting which had already been copied, then you are likely to infringe more than one copyright. (when it comes to books, you are generally allowed to copy a very small portion of the book for private use, without infringing copyright).

A trademark on the other hand, is a registered monopoly right. It is a logo, words, sign which suggest a make... much like the Nike swish - This is something we all know is a sign on Nike. Or the Apple Macs apple, or Coca Cola etc.

[sandi]

Xzotic, How do you keep getting into these situations? J W is knowledgable about ebay, I'll ask him to take a look at this post and see if there is any recourse for you. You may have been ''flagged'' by Ebay if this happened before so they were probably watching you. I think I remember you mentioning a similar situation...Unfortunately, I know nothing of Bob Marley, such designs and the like...so I couldn't tell you if that is infringement or not. Just looks like a regular guy to me. If you used someone else's photo as a reference, [not a 'loose' reference] but used it to cut your stencil it could be infringement..

Here are a few helpful links concerning copyright. All Artists really need to know this stuff. I don't judge or police anyone...I'm just familiar with the laws...I just try to help.



http://www.copyright.gov/

http://www.artslaw.org/INDEX.HTM

http://www.rightsforartists.com/copyright.html

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

[xzotic ink]

thanks,,,i appreciate EVERYONE giving me some feedback on this,,i dont know im so stumped by it, just when i was making a nice little flow going,,im just an underdog trying to make some pocket money,,,,dam, i feel like i just got stepped on,,,im gonna post the dunkin donuts one for fun,,

[J W]

Originally Posted by xzotic ink

SANDI OR J.W OR ANYONE,, please let me know what the hell is going on, i woke this morning to find out most of my stuff was taken off ebay,,,why? what the hell,. now!! some company claims copy right laws again,,here are the photos below,,,first of all the tshirt doesnt say b marley, second there is no poster or t ever made like this,,the hat, they dont even sell hats,,and the hat design was all mine,,,so are sneakers,,,i couldnt do tiny detail so i took a photo of b marley and just did the contour lines(i think thats what you call it) and added the normal colors around it,,,I never saw a print even like it,,they have print shirts with just an outline of b marley but not like this, its a frontal picture,,,fourth i say when "as listed" these are MY DESIGNS, AIRBRUSHED BY ME,,,how the hell are they claiming this,,the store doesnt even have sneakers or hats, and plenty people sell stuff like an old t of b marly,,im soooo made, ,im thinking of writing ebay and the store,,its not right , i did not copy there images,,can they just snatch it because they own his face, is that how it works? Should i complain or just shut up about it,,,look at the designs yourself,,,,you might of saw numerous print shirts like with b marley face on it,,but its completely different,,,,Maybe i just dont see it,,can someone explain, even if they dont have these designs, they own his face? i see the name, but even his face?

First off - who said what.? Was it eBay's "VeRO" (Verified Rights Owner) division that contacted you and did they inform you as to who it was that filed whatever complaint.? We need to know the particulars to identify the problem...

In looking at the images you have posted there are two possibilities offhand - one (and the most obvious) might be "Nike" - many product manufacturers will not allow you to use any of their trademarked names or imagery to resell their product, especially if you have modified the product without their consent and foreknowledge - they feel under the circumstances that having their product name prominent in the display can be misconstrued as their endorsement of your work and possibly the subject of your work... If you get popped for just one thing, they will pull ALL of your current listings and you may get a warning only as many people are unaware of the complexity of the issue. To learn more with regard to eBay and VeRO go here:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/tp/programs-vero-ov.html

Another possibility is the Bob Marley Estate may have objection - many of these estates are reigning in strict control of the use of any image depicting that person's estate - Dale Ernhart (spelling?) Sr.'s estate takes a very dim view of the use of his image without express permission - being as he was from this area, Sandi can tell you more about that.

As I relayed once before prior to this thread being accidentally deleted, I once sold my Canon digital camera on eBay and used a scan of the logo of the box it came in and the info in the box to create an ad to sell my camera - I was also bumped off for that sale because Canon took a dim view of using their info to resell the camera - go figure

I think the most important thing here is to identify the "why" aspect of why they are doing this and go from there so as to learn how to be able to do what you want and work within their framework.

In the interim, here's an alternative site to sell your work on - similar to eBay but it is only for art AND currently no sales fees or percentages! The only fees are for "Featured" listings (all the bells & whistles) - Check it out:

http://www.artbyus.com/

-JW

[Bettyboop]

Hey xzotic, I have added my MSN...

[xzotic ink]

JW heres, the deal, NIKE NEVER BOTHERS ME,,,,now that i opened my big mouth they most likely will come along,,,its from a tshirt company, clothing line , CALLED ZIONROOTSWEAR.COM...IT is some bob marley store and ziggy and other reggae wear famous faces,,I tried contacting them and nothing came about,,it said store is coming soon?? With the dunkin donuts thing,,that was about a year ago,,never had a problem since,,been selling b marley gear for the past month. SANDI, yes, i did just cut away the outline of b marley from his portrait,,nothing like what they have, as i said, a frontal its what they have or one with his hand in it,,JW, they didnt say its was filed, im not sure let me recheck, they gave me AN ALERT, RED LITTLE THING,,Im wondering if now im finally getting some good sales if other people just report me and try to find all ways to ban me?? I was talking about how you scanned you camera box,,if they dont carry this image,,nothing close to it,,this is not FREEDOM OF ART EXPRESSION? I mean im just getting different advise left and right,,,how can i find out how someone already has a copyright law on something before i paint it? do they have a legit claim,,i know SANDI, I KEEP SCREWING MYSELF,,they dont even sell hats and sneakers, im just a small person making petty cash compared to them,,what the hell,,,and the worst part i made sure this image wasnt ever done before,,,i actually spent weeks playing with the contour lines of b marley to find the right fit,,,,bastards!

[J W]

Originally Posted by xzotic ink

JW heres, the deal, NIKE NEVER BOTHERS ME,,,,now that i opened my big mouth they most likely will come along,,,its from a tshirt company, clothing line , CALLED ZIONROOTSWEAR.COM...IT is some bob marley store and ziggy and other reggae wear famous faces,,I tried contacting them and nothing came about,,it said store is coming soon?? With the dunkin donuts thing,,that was about a year ago,,never had a problem since,,been selling b marley gear for the past month. SANDI, yes, i did just cut away the outline of b marley from his portrait,,nothing like what they have, as i said, a frontal its what they have or one with his hand in it,,JW, they didnt say its was filed, im not sure let me recheck, they gave me AN ALERT, RED LITTLE THING,,Im wondering if now im finally getting some good sales if other people just report me and try to find all ways to ban me?? I was talking about how you scanned you camera box,,if they dont carry this image,,nothing close to it,,this is not FREEDOM OF ART EXPRESSION? I mean im just getting different advise left and right,,,how can i find out how someone already has a copyright law on something before i paint it? do they have a legit claim,,i know SANDI, I KEEP SCREWING MYSELF,,they dont even sell hats and sneakers, im just a small person making petty cash compared to them,,what the hell,,,and the worst part i made sure this image wasnt ever done before,,,i actually spent weeks playing with the contour lines of b marley to find the right fit,,,,bastards!

I did a little checking and it appears that the Zion Rootswear (aka "The Marley Store") may in fact be licensed by the Marley estate to create such works and if they are going to tout themselves as being the only "Licensed" distributors of "Marley" wear, then their first order of business will be to quash any and all offenders - on eBay it is easier to accomplish because all they have to do is prove THEY are "verified rights owners" of this intellectual property - if they can show any sort of contract or copyright document that predates the original insertion of your auctions, they win and if they can show some connection to the actual Marley estate they will certainly win any argument and eBay will err on the side of caution and give you the warning... I'm afraid if you push this you will lose.
I know it isn't fair - in any given situation the answer is easiest found by following the money - in this case given how much you make versus how much income they represent and eBay's interest being a percentage of those sales, eBay will choose to go with whomever represents the greatest financial influx for them...
In an odd way it is a back-handed compliment - obviously your work is good enough that the big guys feel it to be a threat!

Times are changing with regard to the use of imagery found wherever - with the advent of superior technologies and the virtual world making communication easier and faster, what once went unnoticed is now being noticed and prosecuted - one trend I can tell you of from direct knowledge - photographers as a rule do not fair well with the selling of their work in how they used to market it - they'd sell it to one magazine or one calendar company and that would be that and as such they are always open to new venues... In the past few years there is a new industry of agencies that go around and buy up all the stock imagery they can by acting as agents for these photographers - the photographer signs up with them, and they take all their images and as the acting agent they now use today's technology to search the web and look for any and all variations on that imagery and will try to prosecute the offenders by first threatening them with legal action then offering them an out of a rather high licensing fee... In reality the photographers themselves are usually unaware of this and receive only a small percentage of any licensing agreement, but the agencies on the other hand acting as the "agent" for each photographer's rights extorts as much as they can for themselves and guess what - it's legal by the strictest interpretation of the law.

What I am about to say does NOT constitute an endorsement - IF you choose to use imagery from National Geographic, calendars, magazines, etc. there is always a potential risk that you will run afoul of this very type of problem - the more popular the original image, the higher the probability of problems, especially if you seek to profit from duplicating whatever... IF you choose to do such, I would NOT sign the work and I certainly wouldn't turn around and create a work based on a copyright protected piece and then claim a copyright for this new work - that would be for lack of a better word - absurd.

A little trivial fact I know from working with a fellow who has worked with National Geographic - he studies the Andean Mountain Cat, a little known wild cat in the South American mountains. His research is funded by National Geo - ANY image seen in National Geographic is owned by the magazine itself - if you shoot for them, they own the rights - that's a BIG organization to go up against, and that's just one example...

-JW

[sandi]

Xzotic, If you use someone's photo to create art it is considered a derivative work, it is technically copyright infringement unless you have permission.

You asked how can you tell if an image is copyright protected....well, in a nut shell they all are. Unless it is ''public domain'' then it is fair game. let me explain.

Basically all images that you see photos and artwork online, on calenders, in books, or anywhere are copyright protected. They belong to someone. They do not have to bear the © copyright symbol, they do not have to have the owner's name, if it does not belong to you then it is a safe bet that it belongs to someone.

There is ''public domain'' these images are available for use by anyone. These are old images, very old..no one who owned them are alive anymore. Included in this category are images like paintings by the old masters...the Mona Lisa for example...copy it all you like. Old photos..like lots of old Native American portraits, possibly like the Sitting Bull one that you mentioned in another thread. There are books full of copyright free or public domain images that you can use.. But be careful, make sure that these are actually public domain before using.

Now if you take a photo with a camera, it is yours. It is copyright protected automatically. If you make a painting from that photo..it is yours and automatically copyrighted. You can register them with the copyrght office, but you do not have to...at the moment your picture is taken or your artwork is completed copyright automatically takes effect. You may put the © copyright symbol on it whether you register it or not..it is all yours.

Now, if you see a photo that you want to use to make a painting of in a magazine, or online or anywhere else then you have to get the photographer's permission to use that photo. Say you like one of my wolf photos...you email me and say ''Gee Sandi, I really like your wolf photo and I'd like to ask your permission to use that photo to create a painting''.. I'll write back and say yes sure go ahead...or yes but it will be a fee of $19.95...or no. If I say no, it may not be because I'm a stingy cow...it may be because I've sold exclusive rights of that image to someone else, and your copying it would get me in trouble....get it? If I say yes, and you create the painting then you have created a derivative work, it is okay with my permission...but without my permission you would be stealing from me.
Only the copyright owner can say how their work will be used.

If you copy a photo without the owner's permission...say my wolf again. You make a glorious painting from my photo, or art, then you can't copyright it. You can get sued. You have to ask my permission first. It's funny because you see it all the time...people take other artist's work, airbrush it on to something, display it on their website, and it will have in big bold letters underneath..'do not copy my artwork, all images copyright blah, blah, blah' They either got permission from the original artist, or they don't know the law. You can't copyright something that is stolen.

It is a little complicated, and a bit much at first...but when you start to get how it works, you'll see how it protects you, and drives you to become more creative. It forces everyone to step up and do their own thing.

I'm not a lawyer, and I don't claim to know everything, what I stated above is very basic. If you want to learn this stuff please go to the US Copyright Office website and simply read the laws...it may not make sense at first, but if you know the law the understanding of application will come. These are laws that effect all artists, it is wise to know them.

[egneg]

Thats a heavy duty bummer Xzotic. I have heard many horror stories about ebay. One was not because of the art but because of the medium he painted on and the wording he used. You almost have to have quite a bit of legal knowledge nowdays to make a few bucks.

[Bettyboop]

Good point Sandi, I think I may have confused things in my previous post.

What I was trying to get across (very badly) is that if you were to copy something which had previously been copied with permission, then you are likely to infringe 2 copyrights.

eg: In written work, if I had permission to translate a Spanish book into English, then someone came and copied my English translation without permission, then they would not only infringe my copyright but also the copyright of the person who wrote the Spanish book, so there could be multiple claims.

Does that make sense

Betty

[mnormington]

That's BS what EBAY did. You see stuff on there all the time with aaliyah and all the rappers' images on there. Not to mention Marilyn Monroe and what not. Now I'm mad too.

[david nittmann]

The copyright/trademark business is confusing at best, even to the lawyers who specialize in these problems. Please read "legal lowdown" in Art Business News, March 2007, pg82

[stormer]

Browsing some old stuff here, and have a question about public domain photos;

There are lots of sites on the net that say all their photos are public domain, what happens if the photos there aren't? The site has "stolen" the photo, I use it in good faith, but I am still screwed right?

And yes, the copyright laws are weird; I have a friend that owns an advertising company and last year they made a calendar. Another calendar company tried to sue them for using their calendar measurements! Excuse me! I thought most calendars have the same measurements but no. Luckily there was one or two millimeters here or there that saved them...

Niclas